Netscape 7.1 and Final Release Issues

Poster: dbaron
Dated: Wednesday February 11 2004 - 18:28:39 GMT

I just downloaded the final release. For the past several weeks I have been experiencing several small 'issues' with certain features in Netscape 7.1 on Windows 2000. IE works great.

First issue: MenuWidth = 100% This used to work great in Netscape 7.1, then a few weeks ago it stopped. Now my menu only goes as wide as it 'needs' to go, not the full width. I have read about another user who had same/similar problem. The solution of setting ItemWidth = 100% is not good because it 'stretches' each menu item - looks bad.

Second issue: Tooltips just don't work on NS7.1. Again, they 'used' to work just fine, then several weeks ago they stopped. Now, they appear without any border on them (even though borderwidth = 1), and, they only appear for a very short amount of time, then they disappear. And, if the tip was 'attached' to a sub-menu item, then when the tip disappears, so does the sub-menu. It's easy to reproduce this problem - just hover over the main Milonic menu, move over the Samples item, move down to the Tool Tips sub-menu item, and freeze. The tip will show, then hide, and take the sub menu with it.

Bigger issue: I have reported these in the past, many, many weeks ago. These problems have flip-flopped between working and not working several times. I have seen other users report similar, if not exactly the same issues. The answers from the support staff, though timely and cheerful, are always the same: It works for us; we see no problem; make sure you download the lastest version. These answers are just not acceptable. And before anyone gets defensive, please, I understand. I develop software too, as do most of us. I have to support my stuff, and I run into plenty of situations where 'It works for me', but not for my users. The thing is, is that in most cases, there really *was* something I could have found, could have reproduced. In these cases, if the problem were that obvious, it wouldn't be a problem, would it? It would have been found and fixed. No, these problems are going to be hard to find and fix.

Both of these issues that I'm reporting today fail on the actual Milonic web site - so there is no need for me to send you my own URL.

Now I know that pretty much eveyone out there running Netscape 7.1 is having no problems. But I'll wager that some folks are. The problem is going to be really hard to figure out, but I've got to believe it is figure-out-able. How can some users running a production verions of Netscape 7.1, rev 1.4, have problems and others do not. I don't know but I really hope someone can figure it out. I have tested this here at work with 2 XP set-ups and 2 Win 2000 set-ups. All 4 of them fail.

Thanks and good luck.

Poster: kevin3442
Dated: Saturday February 14 2004 - 1:07:48 GMT


Oops... Too late! You probably should have put that bit a little earlier. I'm guessing that this post has not received the normal "timely" response from the regular participants or team members precisely because your comments didn't sit well. I debated about replying, and I probably shouldn't, but I feel a need that overwhelms my better judgement, so I'm going to go ahead and reply, although my comments may diverge somewhat from the standard "cheerful" reply. Here's the disclaimer: The following comments represent my own thoughts and opinions, and are not necessarily shared by anyone at Milonic Solutions.

<rant person="kevin3442" listedAs="Team Member" status="Not an employee of Milonic Solutions">

I understand your frustration... I'm sure we've all been there from time to time. But I have to take exception to a few things.


Other than this thread, I found a total of 8 previous posts from you in 5 threads; 4 of which you started, presumably to report an issue and seek assistance. Only one of the threads you started dealt with tooltip problems, and exactly none of the problems you pointed out in that thread had to do with the "disappearing tooltip" issue you mentioned in this current thread. Nor do any of your previous posts deal with the menuwidth=100% issue. So, I'm having a little trouble seeing where you "reported these in the past" and understanding your use of this seeemingly unfounded claim to justify your strident tone.


Agreed, to a point. I do recall participating in at least one thread where menuwidth=100% was broken for a time. That was resolved. It appears that the problem is back in the latest release, although I don't recall it having been reported until now. Regarding tooltips... you're correct. Others have reported the current issue, and you'll note that their reports have been replied to and that the menu developer has acknowledged it as a bug and has promised a solution in a few days.


If you are generalizing to replies outside of your own threads, then you are way off base. Suggesting that a user make sure he or she is using the latest code release is far from a problem. Why should anyone waste time looking at an issue that may have already been solved by an update? Also, as I'm sure you can appreciate, if a problem cannot be reporuced, then it is much more difficult to solve. And if the person reporting the problem cannot or will not post a test URL or source code, which you tend not to do, it makes it more difficult still. At my own company, we run into the same thing, just as you mentioned. If we cannot reproducea customer's problem, then we will still try our best to solve it, even if it means flying someone to the site to deal with it locally. But that's the difference between software and systems that cost a ton, and support from a free on-line forum that's populated by volunteers. And in general, the particpants listed here as "Team Members" as well as the many other regular forum participants usually end up solving the problem, not just saying "it works for me... etc." On the other hand, if you are talking about your own reports specifically, in the four threads that you started:

(1) One of them seems to me to have pretty clearly been related to some internal problem specifcally related to your location (your machines, your OS installation, etc.) John (jgillett) had a look, told you that he couldn't reproduce the problem, and indicated that Andy was also looking. Finally, the problem seems to have mysteriously cured itself.. more evidence that it was specific to some of your computers.

(2) In another of your threads, John again tried to help using the same browser you mentioned, at the same site you told him to try (milonic.com) and again he could not reproduce the problem. What would you expect him to do beyond that, especially if you can't or won't provide a test url or post the source code? He certainly won't be able to drop his job and his life just to focus exclusively on your issue.

(3) In another thread, Ruth was kind enough to volunteer her time and talent and posted a suggestion. There were no more posts from you follwing that suggestion up, so I can only assume that it was successful, or that you resolved the issue in another way.

(4) The tooltip thread that you started never received a reply. Nor did you ask about it again. As it was a known issue at the time, I imagine that the issue was solved in short order with an update.

My long-winded point here is that I don't really see the basis for claiming that, "The answers from the support staff...are always the same: It works for us; we see no problem; make sure you download the lastest version."

My final, and probably most important, point is that perhaps some of your irritation stems from the misplaced perception that you are receiving support from the company's staff at a level that isn't up to your expectations, given that you've purchased a professional license. But here's the thing... support staff?... what support staff?... There is no "support staff" here. The people who have replied to your previous posts are just other users participating in this free forum, volunteering their time, knowledge, and experience to help. A few of us -- me, John (jgillett) and Dave (Hergio) -- are listed as forum moderators or "Team Members" only because we (usually) enjoy participating and we've been around the Milonic Menus a long time, so we may have a bit more experience to draw from. We are not, however, employed by Milonic Solutions. We do not receive any remuneration for our efforts, nor do we directly develop the software. We are not support staff; none of us are. We are all simply volunteers. As such, "acceptable" and "unacceptable" are words that do not apply to any of the answers or replies that we post. We are not obligated to answer anything, but we do our best. If that isn't acceptable, then you should probably log in to the milonic site, then go to the support form on the website that's available to people who have purchased a professional license; then you'll get support directly from Milonic.
</rant>

OK... so, I guess it's pretty clear that I got a little defensive. I hope you can understand my position. I also hope that my rant doesn't keep you from continuing to use the forums in the future. As to the technical issues you raised:

The tooltips issue is known and reportedly will be solved in a few days.

The menuwidth issue is also a known issue and is being worked on. According to Andy's research, the problem stems from a bug in the browser itself. The menu code generates 100% compliant HTML, and works as html. But it fails as Javascript HTML. This failur occurs only in Netscape 7.1 and Mozilla and only with Javascript-generated HTML. So, Andy is currently developing (yet another) workaround for a buggy browser. No indication when this might be done, but it will hopefully not be too long. In the meantime, if you are interested, I can share a potential soution with you that involves using itemwidth. It works in NS7.1 and it will not stretch every item in the menu. Let me know if you're inerested.

Kevin

Poster: Hergio
Dated: Saturday February 14 2004 - 4:47:51 GMT

I can't side with Kevin more if I wanted to. It would be 100% redundant to say my feelings on that because he hit every one of them. You have to look at the forum from the perspective that the menu is offered free to alot of people, and support through the forum is free support and you cannot expect anything from it. Luckily this forum is a great source of information (whether or not your agree) in regards to the menu. As Kevin said, no one on here is employeed by Milonic (excluding Andy), its all voluntary. But I am sure the compensation Andy gets weighted against the work he puts into it, one would think he does it voluntarily. And when it comes to helping solve problems, having people upgrade to the latest version has usually knocked off half the people with problems because the developer of this menu is so damn good at knocking out bugs with each revision. And to add to that, when we try and troubleshoot your problems, understand that we DO NOT have access to the 'readable' source code, so we cannot go in and make a quick change or easily see where a bug could be. The cryptic code you see is what we have to work with. Corporate milonic can only access the intellectual property that is the milonic code. So take all this into consideration before you start accusing the support on this board or the menu itself of not living up to your standards.

Poster: John
Dated: Saturday February 14 2004 - 5:21:51 GMT

Right on, Kevin, and thank you.

As one of the "support staff" (read that as 100% volunteer, not employed by Milonic, just an end-user the same as the rest of the folks on this Forum, who also has a paid job that takes up 10+ hours/day and a second job that takes up my so-called 3 days off - [breathe]), I take great offense to the post from dbaron. I'm not going to re-hash anything from that post - Kevin hit it square on the head.

However, I will say that 99.99% of the folks here make it a pleasure working with you. Unfortunately, there are always a few lurking somewhere that manage to make one wonder if it's worth it all (it is). You understand the incredible amount of work and dedication that Andy has put into this product, and how difficult it can sometimes be to answer every question that is asked (even though we do try). We can't be here 24/7, and for all of us, not even every day. That's life.

To the good guys, the "support staff" says thank you. We also give a sincere thank you to some of our regulars who have been jumping in and taking questions for us. It is very much appreciated.

As for NS, it has bugs (show me one piece of software that does not). So far, Andy has always been able to write around just about every darn problem that has come up. Some may take a little longer than others, but he still manages to do it, and make the Milonic system do things no other system can touch. 5.02 will probably hit tomorrow with some more of his magic. Show me another company, another person, with the dedication that is shown here by Andy and Milonic. Can't do it, can you?