newbie finding problems with Mac/IE 5.x

Poster: jhherring
Dated: Thursday August 5 2004 - 11:13:03 BST

My new Milonic menus are wonderful in every way, and management is delighted with them, EXCEPT when looking at them using Mac/IE 5.x -- the menus really don't behave nearly as well as they do in most other browsers/platforms. The menus can appear in unexpected places and they can take f-o-r-e-v-e-r to load.

I'm sure this has been encountered before, and if anyone might care to point me to the appropriate resouce, I'd be very grateful.

You can see the problem, using Mac/IE 5.x, by visiting:

http://cypressbayhigh.com/new5/

Thank you for your help!


John Herring
jhherring __at__ yahoo.com

Poster: John
Dated: Thursday August 5 2004 - 16:12:48 BST

IE/Mac, as you are probably aware, is no longer supported or developed by M$. It is a dead product. Andy did a lot of patching to get things as good as possible, but there are still issues. Given the status of that browser, and the fact that there are other browsers doing a much better job, spending time to fix things is something of a waste.

Are you running 9 or OS X? If X, suggest Safari or Firefox to your management.

BTW, noticed your code is basically XHTML, but the doctype is wrong for that. Just FYI...

Meanwhile, we appreciate the kind words about the menu.

Poster: Ruth
Dated: Thursday August 5 2004 - 20:17:18 BST

As John noted, that browser is a problem. You also have the menu in a table, but I notice that you do not have a drawMenus(); at the end of your menu_data.js file. If you look at the directions you will see that there is a drawMenus(); with the main menu in the table inside the script tags, but there is also one at the end of the menu_data.js file. I understand that in some browsers leaving it out of the data file is not a problem but it may be with this browser.

Ruth

newbie finding problems with Mac/IE 5.x

Poster: jhherring
Dated: Friday August 6 2004 - 14:28:01 BST

John wrote:

-- IE/Mac, as you are probably aware, is no longer supported
-- or developed by M$. It is a dead product.

Oh, I'm aware of it. I'm also aware that there is this huge legacy of Macs out there (at least where I'm working) that are stuck at IE 5.x because of Microsoft's decision, and many of them have not been switched over to Safari or Netscape or Firefox or Whatever-the-Next-Browser-will-be-Called. Since I cannot bring about the upgrades to all those machines (or force the people using them to learn to use another browser -- any other browser), I'm stuck having to cater to Mac/IE 5.x as much as I can. For now.

-- Andy did a lot of patching to get things as good as possible,
-- but there are still issues.

And Milonic has done an outstanding job, no question about that. I just happen to fall into the niche that's (apparently) not possible to fix completely. It's a drag.

-- Given the status of that browser, and the fact that there are other
-- browsers doing a much better job, spending time to fix things is
-- something of a waste.

I'd agree in about 8.27416 milliseconds if it weren't for the fact that I must make all my stuff work for Mac IE 5.x, at least for now. Who knows when the IT department around here will actually remove IE from these Macs, and force people to use NN or Firefox or Safari? This year? Next? Three years from now? There's no way to know. We're talking about the civil service here. It could be forever.

-- Are you running 9 or OS X? If X, suggest Safari or Firefox to your
-- management.

Most, if not all, of the Macs in question are running both OS 9 and X. There's no question that they COULD run Safari or Firefox or even NN, and some do, but the problem is getting enough of the right people to make the switch. That's not so easy, despite the clear advantages of doing so. Can you say "bureaucracy"? Old habits die hard.

-- BTW, noticed your code is basically XHTML, but the doctype is
-- wrong for that. Just FYI...

Yeah, thanks . . . I write XHTML more or less out of habit, and always by hand, but do so in an editor whose automatic insertion of the doctype statement is not yet set to XHTML. I could probably make it do so (hell, it may just be a checkbox somewhere in the prefs), but I usually just ignore the doctype statement. I'll strip it out altogether at some point, or re-write it with a global search/replace at some point. It's not the kind of thing that easily makes it to the top of my to-do list, since it doesn't seem to have a whole lot of effect in most situations anyway. (Unless . . . it really DOES matter, and I'm just wrong in thinking that it doesn't . . . .)

-- Meanwhile, we appreciate the kind words about the menu.

Well, if you knew how many hours I've spent trying to get other menus to work . . .

==============================================

Ruth wrote:

-- As John noted, that browser is a problem.

Yep, as above.

-- You also have the menu in a table, but I notice that you do not
-- have a drawMenus(); at the end of your menu_data.js file.

Right. I mentioned this in my last thread. When I accidentally left it out of the menu_data.js file, the menus worked anyway, as long as the statement appeared in the HTML file. Since it worked, at least on Windows boxes, I thought it didn't matter. I'll try it the right way and see if that improves things in Mac IE 5.x.

-- If you look at the directions you will see that there is a
-- drawMenus(); with the main menu in the table inside the script
-- tags, but there is also one at the end of the menu_data.js file.
-- I understand that in some browsers leaving it out of the data file
-- is not a problem but it may be with this browser.

This looks like just the kind of precise, knowledgeable insight into the problem that I need. I'm very grateful for all the help I've gotten here in this forum in the short time I've been here, whining about my ignorance.

Will report back when/if there's anything new to report, after I've had a chance to insert the statement in the menu_data.js file. The big presentation of the new site (to 225 people!) will take place Monday, but I'll be doing the presentation on a Windows box. No one will know about the Mac problem right away.

Thanks again for all your help. I'll let you know if fixing the code fixes the problem.

John Herring
jhherring __at__ yahoo.com

Poster: Maz
Dated: Friday August 6 2004 - 17:07:04 BST

As much as I love macs, maybe Microsoft school grants could help ... since their mac ie is now obsolete you need upgrading

maz

newbie finding problems with Mac/IE 5.x

Poster: jhherring
Dated: Saturday August 7 2004 - 3:53:01 BST

Maz writes:

-- As much as I love macs, maybe Microsoft school grants
-- could help ... since their mac ie is now obsolete you need
-- upgrading

Hey, I don't DISlike Macs per se. Hell, a long time ago (System 7.something), in a galaxy far, far away, I was considered a Mac guru. But certain economic pressures made it advisable to switch to PCs, and I haven't had the time to look back since.

Your idea about hitting Microsoft up for some money, since in effect they created this problem, is a good one, and when the opportunity presents itself I'll ask the right people. But remember that we're dealing with the civil service here -- even if everyone agreed that this would be A Good Thing, it would still take 20 years before it actually got implemented.

Thanks, just the same. I'll drop the right suggestions in the right ears, but I'm most definitely NOT holding my breath.

-- John Herring
jhherring __at__ yahoo.com

Poster: Ruth
Dated: Saturday August 7 2004 - 4:51:18 BST

One thing I forgot to say, it shouldn't make a difference but it may in this IE for mac browser because of the way it reads position from the table rather than from the browser window, so, even though you have them set to zero, I would remove the top=; left=; since the position is relative anyway. Also, there's a newer version out, I do not know that it will make any difference.

Ruth

newbie finding problems with Mac/IE 5.x

Poster: jhherring
Dated: Saturday August 7 2004 - 13:48:49 BST

Ruth writes:

-- One thing I forgot to say, it shouldn't make a difference but it
-- may in this IE for mac browser because of the way it reads
-- position from the table rather than from the browser window,
-- so, even though you have them set to zero, I would remove
-- the top=; left=; since the position is relative anyway.

Interesting notion. I'll give it a whirl, and report back when there's something to report. May take a few days.

-- Also, there's a newer version out, I do not know that it will make
-- any difference.

A newer version of what? The menus? I had downloaded them only just the other day.


Also, as long as I've got your ear, can you tell me how the purchase works? I've bought a single-domain license from Milonic, so I know I can use these menus throughout this one domain. Is it also true I can use any of the other Milonic menus, as long as they all stay within this domain, without needing a new license?


-- John Herring
jhherring __at__ yahoo.com

Poster: Ruth
Dated: Saturday August 7 2004 - 17:32:57 BST

I don't know what you mean by any of the other Milonic menus. There's only one. If you mean the various samples, you are entitled to use any and all if you want, there would only be one set of the 3 menu program files [milonic_src.js, mmenudom.js, mmenuns4.js] So, you could create any number of menu_data.js files designed however you want. Then on the section you want the particular menu you put that menu data file. So, let's say you've got 3 sections and a data file for each i.e. section1_data.js etc. You just call the particular data file on the pages you want. You could also put different styles into one data file if you were doing the table placement. So, for example, on the main site page you might put the 'main' menu in the table, on another one in which you've got a different style for the menu, you'd put the menu named something other than main [so the program doesn't get confused] into the table. Each would have whatever submenus each calls from the showmenu section. You might check out the Beginners' Guide section, it doesn't have a lot yet, we are still slowly adding things, but it talks about styles and forms and such.

If you are by chance referring to a 'subdomain' off the main one, I don't think you can use the same license. You'd have to contact Milonic about that.

Ruth

newbie finding problems with Mac/IE 5.x

Poster: jhherring
Dated: Saturday August 7 2004 - 20:15:17 BST

Ruth writes:

-- I don't know what you mean by any of the other Milonic
-- menus. There's only one. If you mean the various samples,
-- you are entitled to use any and all if you want, there would
-- only be one set of the 3 menu program files [milonic_src.js,
-- mmenudom.js, mmenuns4.js] So, you could create any
-- number of menu_data.js files designed however you want.

This has to be the answer to my poorly worded question. A newbie like myself sees all these wonderful instances of the Milonic menu(s) on the Milonic site, lots of different examples, and says "wow! it's not just one pretty menu, it's a lot of different pretty menus."

So I went and bought one license, not really realizing that it covered all the different variations of the one menu product, when used within any one domain. That the look and feel could be changed from example A to example B and not require a new license. Good to know.

-- If you are by chance referring to a 'subdomain' off the main
-- one, I don't think you can use the same license. You'd have
-- to contact Milonic about that.

Nope. Wasn't even headed in that direction. Sorry for the confusion. Thanks for the answer.


John Herring
jhherring __at__ yahoo.com

newbie finding problems with Mac/IE 5.x

Poster: jhherring
Dated: Tuesday August 10 2004 - 10:10:41 BST

Thanks to the input of people like Ruth and John and Maz, it looks like 99.9999% of my problems with the menu and Mac/IE 5.x are now resolved. The big presentation (to 350 people!) was yesterday, and it went like a charm, with lots of positive feedback.

I'm not sure whether it was adding the drawmenus statement back in that did the trick, or taking out the top and left statements, but whatever it was, the menus now appear to work on the Mac almost as well as they do on Windows. Haven't investigated this very thoroughly yet, but the little I've seen so far looks good.

I'm very grateful for all the help you've given -- you've made me look like a guru. You and Milonic. Thanks very much.


John Herring
jhherring __at__ yahoo.com