Netscape 4.7X reload problem

Poster: pavia
Dated: Wednesday September 24 2003 - 18:59:16 BST

I know this topic has been addressed previously (here's one: http://www.milonic.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2369). Basically, the page keeps reloading and never stops so you never actually get to see anything.

While I am in complete agreement with others that the world would be a far better place if everyone upgraded to current browser versions, the fact is that they don't. So, my question is this: is the reload problem fixable or not? If not, then I forego the Milonic menu because it will reflect poorly on my skills as a web designer. Doesn't matter if that's justified or not--that will be what people come away with and I want to use this for a quasi-governmental agency so you know that they're probably using outdated computers/monitors/software etc.

Believe me...I hate having to dumb down my web sites for Netscape but if I don't, people think I don't know what I'm doing!

Poster: Ruth
Dated: Wednesday September 24 2003 - 19:14:06 BST

Do you have a website to see what you mean is happening? I have NN4.7 and check my menu in it and once I fixed one thing in my version 5 it stopped doing that. Also, I have version 3 which I know is not being supported now, but I've never had a problem with 4.7 with that version. Also, as a suggestion, I'm looking over the stuff now to try and figure how to do it, but you might be able to set up a code in your page so that if it's netscape 4.7 or less it calls the version 3 while all the other browsers use version 5? an if / else I think it is. Just a thought.

Ruth

Re: Netscape 4.7X reload problem

Poster: John
Dated: Wednesday September 24 2003 - 20:09:35 BST


Trust me, I know the feeling (working at a state university). After constant battles with management I've stopped re-writing everything just to satisfy the 'old browser' crowd. It's not worth my time and effort. Upgrades are simple, free, and usually made available for good reason. There's no reason not to.

Those who complain to me that a page "isn't working right" get a snap reply about upgrading.

As Ruth requested, post a URL so we can see what's up.

Poster: Ruth
Dated: Wednesday September 24 2003 - 21:24:17 BST

Grrrr. actually there is a reason not to, in some cases the person has a computer which they cannot afford to update, in some they are elderly...I've worked with a number of them...and it was hard enough for many of them to get them even doing anything with a computer, it took them a lot of time to learn how to 'surf' the web and they love it and it makes their life more interesting [I used to work with the elderly in rest homes] For many of them they have neither the time, nor to be truthful in many cases the capacity anymore to learn something new and believe me for many just updating from say netscape 4.7 to 6 is really new. It upsets many, it frustrates them and makes their lives much more miserable. I know that many cannot understand that, but I supported my dad at home during his alzheimer's and it made me much more aware of how hard it is for many of the elderly who although they are not damned by that disease do have mental slowness now and the inability to grasp and keep in memory new things. I'm sorry I didn't mean to go off on anyone, it's just that for many there are reasons for not upgrading..some monetary but many just the inability to learn even a few new things. I sure hate to take away the few pleasures they get 'surfing' the web. And boy if you saw how smiling many of them are, you'd know what I mean

Ruth

Poster: John
Dated: Wednesday September 24 2003 - 22:18:46 BST

Apology absolutely not necessary, Ruth.

I understand fully where you're coming from. My mom went through alzheimer's for almost 9 years before it took her, so that side I know. However, there is no cost involved with upgrading, so I won't let you get away with that one

While I can appreciate your point about older folks having difficulty with it, I also think that if they can get around on the web they can click a few buttons to upgrade. Besides, by being so far behind they're missing out on a lot the web has to offer. Many pages no longer open in the old browsers, as we all know, and that in itself has to be frustrating for them.

Poster: Ruth
Dated: Thursday September 25 2003 - 1:55:38 BST

Well, unless you have to get a new machine to be able to upgrade.... wonder how much upgrading of things you can do on a 32 megs of ram 3g HD? That was the computer I had until 2002 when I had finally saved enough for a newer computer. But, my neighbor has my old one..she couldn't afford any at all and didn't have any idea about computers until I gave her that and showed her how to 'surf' the web. But, really she doesn't need a newer one, she only reads the newspapers.....

For people like my neighbor, she just likes reading and maybe talking to the family that is no longer in the area. And my site unlike many lends itself to a text only section for those who just want to read the poetry.

But I will give you that for the majority it's just plain laziness and they should upgrade.

Ruth

Poster: John
Dated: Thursday September 25 2003 - 14:46:07 BST


Cool - we finally agree...

Poster: kevin3442
Dated: Saturday September 27 2003 - 2:19:25 BST

My two cents...

I guess this interesting exchange highlights a point that is sometimes easy to forgt when you're digging through the details. The site design (and the back end that supports it) must keep the target audience firmly in mind. Fortunately for me, my target audience doesn't face the difficulties Ruth so aptly pointed out, so I don't have to feel bad when I tell them they'll have to upgrade. Others may not have that luxory... a good lesson.

Back to the original problem, however. v3 got around the constant reload problem, so I can't imagine that v5 didn't already take that into account. My meager test page works well in NS4 (yes, I admit to testing it, but only out of curiousity!)

Kevin

Poster: pavia
Dated: Saturday September 27 2003 - 22:27:27 BST

For whatever reason, the page now loads in Netscape 4.79 so now I actually get to see it. What I also get to see is another problem similar to one mentioned in the forums that didn't seem to get resolved. It pertains to the menu basically crapping out after a few passes over the menu items. When this happens, sublinks don't appear...or they won't go away...or the rollovers cease functioning...can't pin it down precisely because a number of different things happen. I should note that I am on a Macintosh and everyone else should be too. Ha ha. Only kidding. Just letting you know I'm on a Mac because I always check my work on the Windows platform but haven't been able to do so yet with this layout (in case functionally/aesthetically it sucks).

Here's the temporary url: http://www.paviaweb.com/test/

Poster: pavia
Dated: Thursday October 2 2003 - 2:11:09 BST

Forgive me for making assumptions but would it be pretty safe to say that Version 5 of the Milonic Menu does NOT function well enough in Netscape 4.7X to be used? Either it works or it doesn't. I just would love an answer. The "read me" file indicates it is compatible with:

* Netscape 4.03+ on Windows, Linux, and Apple Macs running OS9 OS X

I am not finding this to be the case. If it's me doing something stupid, fair enough...certainly wouldn't be the first time. If we could just skip the debate on designing for Internet users who, for whatever reason, do not upgrade their browsers...

Thanks.

Poster: John
Dated: Thursday October 2 2003 - 2:50:30 BST

I notice you're running RC11. RC13 is current, with the last version being posted just this afternoon (there were at least 5 or 6 updates to it yesterday alone). Many of the fixes have to do with positioning issues, a lot on Macs. Have you given it a try?

As for NS4.7x, it should work just fine. However, sometimes a little tweaking is required, not only with the menu, but with just about anything you write for that series. I code for a living, and am constantly fighting to make normal every-day things work in it.

Poster: pavia
Dated: Thursday October 2 2003 - 3:19:13 BST

I did give RC13 a try...just hadn't bothered to put it up on the server because locally, it didn't seem to make any difference--the problem with the menu crashing persists. I've now replaced the copies on the server with RC13.

Incidentally, I should mention--I can't even view the Milonic pages using Netscape 4.79 on my Macintosh...the home page just continuously reloads. What do you suppose that means--a little more tweaking is required on the Milonic pages also?

I can't invest more time in "tweaking" if there's no point in doing so, ya' know? That time would be better spent finding an alternative method of navigation...and since everything (layout/site structure) revolves around the navigation, I'm sure you can appreciate the importance of obtaining a definitive answer as to the usability of V5 with Netscape 4.7X.

Poster: John
Dated: Thursday October 2 2003 - 8:11:24 BST

Trust me, I do understand your situation. I've asked Andy to take a look. He will figure it out.

Poster: Andy
Dated: Thursday October 2 2003 - 10:38:41 BST

RC14 now has a fix for this.

Cheers
Andy

Poster: pavia
Dated: Thursday October 2 2003 - 12:50:07 BST

Gosh that was quick!

Well, here's where I'm at...I was never able to see the Milonic home page using Netscape 4.79 on the Macintosh--now I can (no more continuous reloading of the page). And what I see is...the same menu-crashing problem that I am experiencing with my own test menu...which is still there despite throwing RC14 up on the server.

Is it time to throw in the towel yet you think?

Poster: pavia
Dated: Saturday October 4 2003 - 20:42:36 BST

Hmmm...the lack of a response would seem to indicate that it's time to find an alternative navigation method...

Poster: John
Dated: Sunday October 5 2003 - 18:22:27 BST


No, it just means...

1. You do turnabouts pretty fast

2. The development server has been down and Andy's time is involved in getting that back up. Seems he kinda needs that server to do - well, development.

You seemed to be pleased at his very quick response to your other problem. A little patience would go a long way, eh...?

We do the best we can with a limited number of helpers (none of whom are employed by Milonic), and a world-wide audience to support.

Poster: Hergio
Dated: Monday October 6 2003 - 2:27:51 BST

Make sure you have the RC14 of the milonic_src, mmenudom, and mmenuNS4 files on your server. Also, I would try putting up a test sample menu on your page to see if it works. Maybe you have something syntactically different in your menu_data code that would be fixed if you started fresh with a new menu_data and began from there.

And yeah, give us alittle more time. Sheesh! As John mentioned a couple posts ago, unlike MOST other companies out there, here at Milonic we take your requests to heart and the big man actually acts on them, his motives are...his customers and always will be! You'll never find a more dedicated guy. Stick it out with us, we'll (he'll) figure it out.